Today I discovered an amazing family of ship builders, owners and repairers. They were the Turnbulls.
It all started, as far as I can tell anyway, with a Thomas Turnbull of Whitby who was, possibly, a watch maker. He figured the future was not about time keeping and moved into boat building. As you do.
He eventually lived in a lovely big house called Whitehall built in 1792, above Campion’s Whitby shipyard. It actually overlooked the shipyard, so Thomas could see people arriving for work every day from over the top of his kippers.
The house, Whitehall, is now rented out to people who’d like to spend a week or two living in Victorian luxury. Not the whole house, mind you. Just a bit of it.
This chap was Thomas Turnbull I (1793-1867). He married and had children including a son who became Thomas Turnbull II (1819-1892). It was during Thomas 2’s time running the family business that the first Turnbull steamships were made in 1871. He was also responsible for the move away from wood and into iron then steel. Of course, eventually, he lived in his own fancy mansion at The Mount.
[NB: I’m fairly certain this is the same house that Thomas 2 lived in but I can’t be 100% sure. It’s now a place you can get married in.]
Then along came Thomas 3 (1845-1924) and his son Thomas 4 (c1877-1965)…it could go on from there but I stopped researching when the company (Thomas Turnbull and Son) folded in 1902.
As these things go, Thomas 3 wanted his own mansion so he moved into one on Airy Hill.
It’s almost like every big house in Whitby was lived in by a Turnbull. Though not all Turnbulls had his own big house. Thomas 4, it seems, did not. By then, though, the family businesses had started to fold.
Their businesses were somewhat interconnected. The main, and first, business was Thomas Turnbull and Son. They made ships which were then utilised by other parts of the family. If it was the carriage of coal, for instance, the ship would more than likely be built for Turnbull Brothers of Cardiff. This business was set up in 1877 by Thomas 3’s brothers Philip and Lewis. (Incidentally, Cyril and Bertrand Turnbull, sons of Lewis, established the Turnbull Coal and Shipping Co.)
Or perhaps the ship was being built for the London trade in which case it would be heading off to Turnbull, Scott and Co. This company dates back to 1872, established by Reginald March Turnbull and his cousin, Robert Turnbull Scott.
The Turnbull family was quite proud of their Whitby roots and being the civically minded Victorians they were, they even gave the town an area of land to be used for sport and recreation. It’s still called the Turnbull ground and the local Whitby football club play there still.
While it’s true that they seemed to have a certain amount of civic responsibility, it didn’t necessarily flow down to their ships or the seamen who worked for them. They, like many shipowners of the time were very much opposed to the Merchant Shipping Act of 1876. Their main opposition to the Act rested on the implementation of the Plimsoll Line to help stop the proliferation of so-called coffin ships.
In April 1873, The Times reported…
Yesterday afternoon a very crowded meeting, principally of shipowners and maritime insurance managers, was held at the Talbot Hotel, Whitby, to take into consideration the effects of Mr.Plimsoll’s Bill. Mr.Thomas Turnbull, an owner and builder of ships and screw steamers, was in the chair. Addressing the meeting, he said he had been engaged in shipping during the whole of his life. Having served as an apprentice to the building of ships, then become a shipmaster, and latterly a builder of wooden ships and iron screws. He therefore felt the deepest interest in the question which Mr.Plimsoll had brought so prominently before the country. He had not read the book himself, but he had learnt enough from the extracts in the newspapers to give him a good idea of what it was like; and he had no hesitation in saying that Mr.Plimsoll was dealing with the subject without due knowledge of it. The letters in the Shipping Gazette from Mr.J.W. Mitchell showed on what a loose foundation many of his remarks were based. The statements of Mr.Plimsoll were those of a mere fanatic, and they should be exposed to the shipowners and the people of the country. (applause) Mr.Robert Harrowing, of the firm of Messrs, Harrowing and Co., the well known ship-owners, submitted the first resolution, which was “that this meeting, while admitting the desirability of further provision for preventing the overloading of ships and for the survey of unclassed ships, is of the opinion that legislation should be deferred until the report of the Royal Commission which has been appointed shall be made, and the present unnatural and feverish excitement which has been created on the subject shall have abated” (he continued by going into some detail). Mr.C.Harrison seconded the motion, which was carried enthusiastically.
Mr.Bedlington, shipowner and maritime insurance manager, then proposed the following resolution, which being seconded by Mr.Marwood, was carried unanimously; “That any legislation should be preceded by the most careful investigation and the best scientific and practical evidence, in order that no injustice may be done by adopting a hard and fast load-line, applicable to vessels of every description, and other objectionable penal provisions such as are contained in Mr.Plimsoll’s Bill, and which,if they become law, will bring absolute and immediate ruin on a very large number of British shipowners, and will prevent a considerable proportion of the remainder from working their ships to any advantage whatever” A petition embodying the resolution was read and extensively signed. It was resolved to send it to Mr.W.H.Gladstone, the borough member, for presentation to Parliament, with the request that it be read by the Clerk at the table. The meeting, after being addressed by various other gentlemen, was brought to an end by a vote of thanks to the Chairman.
Whatever happened with their petition, it didn’t make any difference because the Bill was passed and now, the Plimsoll Line is just a normal part of ships today. A lot of the reason why is because of the mining and factory unions standing behind it following improvements in their industries.
Anyway, that’s all I have on the Turnbull Family of Whitby…so far.
But what is the plimsoll line and why did he object to it?
Dear Gary and Dear Mirinda (have I got your names right?),
In searching for information about the Turnbull’s of Whitby I stumbled on your very informative account of the evolution of the family, and I wonder if you have come across any family photographs? My interest is particularly in Eliza Turnbull (1828 or 1829 – 1906), and her husband William Wray (1829 – 1885), who together founded the Wray (optical Works) company in Highgate in London in 1850. I’ve got most of my research in place, but I’ve not found any sign of a photograph to round things off ! Eliza was the daughter of the William Turnbull who was the second generation of Turnbull clock and watch makers (I think the William Turnbull who was her grandfather was your William Turnbull 1. Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Jonathan
Most of the information I used was from a book called ‘A Shipping Venture: Turnbull Scott and Company 1872-1972’ by Anne and Russell Long. It tends to concentrate on that company though there is quite a bit about the Turnbull family at large. While there’s photos in the book there’s no Wray or Eliza T photographs I’m afraid. I have found a couple of Wray mentions in the text however. Please ignore if you already know it.
A Charles Wray worked at Turnbull Scott and Company for 42 years until his death in around 1915. His father was William (Douglass?) Wray, optician and telescope maker of Highgate who was elected a fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society in 1862. Is this your William Wray? It sounds like it might be. While his son worked for the Turnbulls in London, William purchased a share in a ship, Southgate 1 (1883).
Incidentally, the book states that Charles Wray was a distant relative of the Turnbulls and I wonder if that’s because his mother was the grand daughter of William Turnbull 1? Charles had three sons, Frederick Clarence, Cecil John and William Douglas, all of whom worked in the shipping industry in form or another.
That’s all I have but if I find more I’ll let you know.
I hope you don’t mind but I’ve moved your comment to the relevant post in the blog. Just so I could find it easier.
Thank you
Gary
I have some family tree information on the Turnbulls. But i do not have anything on Eliza or William.
I am the grandson of Alice Mary Turnbull
I am a relative of the Turnbull family, through Emma Alice Lawson, who married Thomas Turnbull, who lived in The Mount, in Whitby. I do not think that this is Carr Mount. Does anyone know the actual whereabouts of the Mount? It was listed in 1972 and is shown as being on Helredale Road. Has it been pulled down? Many thanks, Frances Morgan.
Hello everyone The Mount that Thomas Turnbull lived in was torn down in the 1960s when the bridge was built and used to be just up from Whitehall on the other side of the road to Scarborough on the road to Larpool cemetery. I do have a photograph of it and I do know a lot about the family. My Great Grandmother was the eldest daughter of Thomas Turnbull of the Mount and was named Emma Alice after her mother. I am currently doing a lot of research on my ancestors from many branches that were from Whitby.Wayne
Thank you for this, Wayne. I’d very much love to hear of anything interesting you discover.
Gary
Thanks for sharing. My grandmother was Marjory Turnbull born1908.
I am currently writing a piece for our local Village magazine about Captain Oswald Graham Noel Turnbull, who gave the village some land for the Cricket Club in 1919, Braywood Cricket Club, The Turnbull Ground, Fifield. Are there any relatives of Michael Thomas Turnbull (b.1919, son of Noel)) who would like to add to the story, send pictures or even receive a copy of the magazine when printed in April? Sadly due to covid we were unable to celebrate the centenary of the CC. last year.
Hello Sarah
My name is Wayne Weighill, my great grandmother was a sister to Noel Turnbull’s father Reginald March Turnbull. I know he has three grandchildren one of whom helped research the book Turnbull Scott and Company a Shipping Venture. I know quite a bit about the Turnbull family from Whitby going back in time and some about Oswald Graham Noel Turnbull who was also a well known tennis player, as well as other Turnbulls who descended from the same Whitby family. Not sure what information you have or might want, but I could see if his grandson would like to provide you with anything.
Wayne
Hi Wayne,
Many thanks. I am interested in knowing about the Turnbull philanthropic ethos, as Capt. ‘Noel’ Turnbull gave land to the village(in 1919/1920) for the village hall building and in turn the land for the cricket club which is in effect leased from the Braywood Village Hall( I am aware that Whitby has a Turnbull Ground Football club which must have been gifted by another Turnbull family member?). With the use of the internet I have found out some information about Capt. Turnbull, but would welcome any insight from the family. I have been in touch with several locals and retired cricketers, but many were very young in the 1960’s!! Regards, Sarah
Hello again Sarah
I got hold of the two grandsons of Noel Turnbull
Can you email me at wweighil@telus.net
And I can give you their contact information, they both remember the Braywood club and are looking for photographs
Wayne
Hello Sarah
Sorry, I forgot a w at the start of my email
It should be
wweighil@telus.net
Wayne
Hello all
I came across this blog by chance after Googling Noel Turnbull. I first heard about him when I saw the Turnbull collection of eighteenth-century drinking glasses at Mompesson House in Salisbury, that he bequeathed to the National Trust. Sarah, I would be very interested to read your piece in the Fifield village magazine when it is printed, and would be very grateful if you could let me know how to obtain a copy. My email address is clastemapr@matra.top.
Many thanks
Simon
Hi
I live in Whitby and am researching my husband’s family tree. I wonder if anyone knows when The Turnbull family moved out of The Mount. My husband’s Grandmother was from Ryhope near Sunderland and came to Whitby and was in service at The Mount. I’m not sure when she came to Whitby but it would not be before 1914. I know The Mount was pulled down in 1960s but can’t find photos of the building or anything about the building after the end of 1800s. Hope someone can help.
Thanks
Maureen
Hello Maureen
Thomas Turnbull of the mount died in 1892 and his wife Emma Alice died in 1906. I think the Mount may have been purchase from the estate by John Turnbull of Golden Grove, one of the sons. I know he purchased the Mount Farm (Whinfield Farm) in 1926 and several other farms near Whitby from 1916 to 1920. John died in 1930.
Wayne Weighill
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Good evening
Well- I am married to Nigel Turnbull. His grandfather was Thomas M Turnbull and it was he who sold Airy Hill in a fit of peak because of a compulsory purchase order on the garden. He then moved to the Isle of Mann. We have many beautiful things from Airy Hill in our home and lots and lots of Turnbull stuff. He donated a couple of things to the Whitby Museum (the sundial for example). There was also a Wilfrid Turnbull who built a large diorama for the Great Exhibition (which we have) and we also have a Turnbull of Whitby long cased clock. So good to know that the family is still being researched.
Hi Rebecca
My grandfather was a first cousin to Thomas M Turnbull, my great grandmother Emma Alice (Turnbull) Weighill was a sister to Thomas M’s father Thomas Turnbull, I have done a lot of family history work from my ancestors from Whitby, including Thomas Turnbull of Whitehall and Thomas of the Mount, and Thomas of Airy Hill.
And some on Thomas Pierre Turnbull, as well as many of the ancestors of of the Weighill and Harrison families from Whitby.
I have met uo with a Turnbull from the Cardiif branch, and Simon from the Turnbull Scott branch in London. I live in Canada, but have come to England a few times and love Whitby. I am a member of the Literary and Philosophical Society at the Whitby museum and have helped on a project from there.
I am currently on holiday and am staying in Tewitfield near Carnforth and would love to make contact with you.
Cheers
I stumbled on this discussion while researching Thomas Turnbull and Son. My grandmother was Mary Turnbull who was born at the end of the nineteenth century and married George Phillip Thornton. I live in Melbourne and have a chair with a bull’s head carved on it which came from my grandmother’s family. I would be very interested in any family history. My email address is simonthornton@smartchat.net.au
Hello Rebecca
I read your post on house husband, I dontknowif you Saw may reply. I am working on research all my relatives and ancestors. My great grandmother was Emma Alice Turnbull she was a sister to your Thomas Turnbull of Airy Hill. I would like to get more information on your family to put in my tree I have a very large comprehensive family tree and have many of the turnbulls from all the brothers and sister from the turnbulls from Whitby my email address is wweighil@ telus.net. cheers Wayne Weighill
Hello everyone. My name is Hubert Desgagnés, from Québec City. I am a former Canadian Coast Guard officer, now retired. I occasionally do research on different aspects of coastal navigation on the St. Lawrence.r. Few years ago (1999), a wreck was found half submerged in the sand of a beach on the shore line near Pointe-aux-Anglais and Port-Cartier on the North Shore. The wreck of the presumed Neptune is the remains of a British transport and trading bark whose date of construction is unknown and which sank on the night of May 2 to 3, 1850 during a storm. The remains of this wreck lies in the sand on the edge of a beach on the St. Lawrence River. The wreck of the presumed Neptune is the remnant of a wooden bark of 484 tons gross tonnage. Commanded by Thomas Turnbull and with a crew of 14, the ship sailed with 32 passengers on April 1, 1850 from Whitby, Yorkshire, in the northeast of England. On the night of May 2 to 3, 1850, a storm forced her to run aground on a beach near Pointe-aux-Anglais. No human loss is to be reported. On May 3, the ship broke up and was considered a total loss. An auction of the remains of the Neptune was held at the Port of Quebec on May 30, 1850, and again in July 1850 when parts of the sails, rigging, and other items were sold for the benefit of insurers.
In August 1999, the remains of the presumed Neptune were found due to very low tides, for few days. If you can provide me more info, I would appreciate.
Hubert
Hello Hubert
I can’t find a Neptune built in Whitby, it was not built by Thomas Turnbull and Son.
I did find a diary entry dated March 27, 1848: “The Barque Neptune left Whitby this day with 13 Emegrants for Quebec. Captain William Turnbull Commander.. I believe this is William Thomas Turnbull the son of William Turnbull and Ann Smart of Whitby. He was a mariner and was a cousin to Thomas Turnbull of the Mount in Whitby and nephew to Thomas Turnbull of Whitehall. Thomas of Whitehall and Turmas of the Mount were the founders of Thomas Turnbull and Son of Whitehall.
Hi Wayne I’m local to Whitby lived within spitting distance of fairmead/ the mount / and Whitehall I’m keen to find some early knowledge of the Turnbull family especially the pre -steam era is it possible to get in touch with you to ask some questions? Thanks
Hello Ged
My email is wweighil@telus.net
if you want to email me
Another Thomas Turnbull link: As a diver freeing some fisherman’s net some years ago, I came across the wreckage and stern section of a, Victorian, screw-driven steam ship, which I believe to be the SS James Gray. Foundered off Porthcawl, South Wales January 1883 in a severe gale, all 25 on board perished. The ship was built by Thomas Turnbull of Whitby in 1877. Wondering if there are any surviving blue-prints/documents referencing the ship (or sister ships) which I can browse; even a description of the ship would be of use. PS have consulted many books including Richard larn’s epic database of UK ship losses, which gives dimensions etc. In particular wondering how many screws/propellers the ship had.
Steve Jones,
South Wales.
1877, August 25, launch of the S.S. James Gray at Whitehall.
1877, September 1, Whitby Gazette, page 4, column 4. Ship Launch at Whitehall. On Saturday afternoon last, a beautifully modelled screw steamer was launched from the Whitehall Dockyard, under very favourable circumstances. This is the 28th steamer of the series launched from this yard since the commencement of the iron shipbuilding by Messrs. Turnbull & Son, in 1871, and as already reported, she is built to the order of Mr. James Gray and partners, and is the fifth screw steamer built at Whitehall Dockyard to this gentleman’s order. The afternoon was fine but cold, and an immense number of spectators assembled on each side of the harbour and in boats on the river to witness the launch. In the yard there were numerous friends of the builders and owners, and among the distinguished visitors were Sir Percival and Lady Radcliffe and family, of Rudding Park, Mr. Tennant, general manager of the North Eastern Railway, &c., &c. A little before 5 o’clock, the blocks which held her in position on the slipway were knocked from under her, and as she gracefully glided down the slipway, the customary bottle of grog was broken against her bows by Mrs. Gray, wife of the principal owner, who named the vessel the James Gray, and, amid loud hurrahs of the spectators, the next minute the noble craft floated majestically upon the waters of Whitby harbour. This vessel is a three decked cargo boat, and has a very large cubical capacity for light goods. Her length is 252 feet, breadth 33 feet inches, depth from floors to upper deck 23 feet 9 inches. Her dead weight carrying capacity is about 2,250 tons with a free board of about 5 feet. Her entire cost to build, engines (by Blair & Co.), and fit up for sea is about £27,050. She will be commanded by Captain White.
January 26, 1883 sailed from Cardiff for St. Vincent with coal and may have been wrecked off Tuskar on the following day. This is what it says on the http://teesbuiltships.co.uk/view.php?year_built=&builder=5111&ref=170774&vessel=JAMES+GRAY
Thanks, Wayne. I see the ship data spreadsheet lists that the James Gray had only one propeller; the stern of this ship has two 🙁 The artefacts found place the wreck as a Victorian era ship. I’ve eliminated all the others ships listed by Lloyds, it seems it’s back to ‘square one’…and a few more dives this summer in the murky waters off Porthcawl. I’ll forward the contemporary newspaper article re the loss of the James Gray on 27 Jan 1883. As well as the 25 crew, the captain’s wife and infant son were also lost. Out of the crew only a few were recovered from the sea, and so far I have only discovered one headstone to a crew member, John O’Neill/O’Niell. The captain/master, Edward McLeod, was initially interred at a local churchyard. At the coroner’s request he had to be dis-interred for the inquest and was later re-buried elsewhere; Leith (his home town) I’m assuming. His wife and infant son were among the few recovered from the coast line over the days following the loss.
Hi
I stumbled upon this blog which is fabulous. I am daughter of Reginald March Graham Turnbull (one of 5 siblings, Alexandra, Lucinda, Reginald March, Charles Robert and Harry Thomas), granddaughter of RM Turnbull (who was first cousin of MT Turnbull – Chairman of the Baltic Exchange 73-75). MT Turnbull has 3 children, Simon who runs Turnbull Scott Holdings (was the Shipping company but finished with building ships in the 80s – the last ship built was the chemical tanker called the Stainless Spray – built in South Korea by Hyundai), Johnny who left the Shipping Company in the 80s and Jane.
OGN Turnbull was their grandfather and brother to RMK Turnbull. OGN Turnbull won a gold Olympic medal in the tennis doubles and played many years at Wimbledon. RM Turnbull played at Wimbledon, as did his first wife Helen Barr and my grandmother on my mother’s side Naomi Gladstone (her husband was great nephew to the prime minister WE Gladstone). Gladstone was friends with the shipping Turnbulls in the Victorian times and often went on their ships.
When I was young Turnbull Scott shipping had MTT, RMT, SMT, JMT, and RMGT and latterly my brother also RMT. I also worked there for work experience – when the offices came down to Farnborough in Surrey! Whitby was often discussed and there were many Turnbull of Whitby grandfather clocks in various houses. We still have several in the family.
The book discussed above was written with MTT, RMGT and SMT and we have several copies along with books about Turnbull Scott shipping….
I hope I have remembered my facts right! I am fascinated by the cricket ground as there was another one in Kingsclere also given by the family and still going….
Very happy to discuss more recent things but my knowledge of before RMKT (my great grandfather) is pretty poor.
Alex Winton (nee Turnbull)
Hello Alexandra
My name is Wayne Weighill and I am a Turnbull from Whitby descendant
My great grandmother Emma Alice Turnbull married Mark Henry Weighill. Emma Alice is a sister to your Reginiald March Turnbull. I live in Canada and we currently have a guest with who we are visiting Banff today. She is from the Philip Turnbull family that went to Cardiff. I have a website on tribalpages.com called weighills from Whitby its by invite only if you are interested.
I have lots of Turnbull information on the site
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